Curse

dansamy · Jan 06, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Those are utterly unacceptable comments, and they are provably untrue. Someone's misreading and inclination to flare is laid at our feet for "ignoring the community?" When we're here, every day? When feedback is read and relayed and discussed daily? I cannot simply let that sort of viewpoint go unchallenged, so do let me tell you a few facts: First, there is no "ignoring the voice of this community" going on, and our continued involvement here is proof of that. I was here, even amongst the absolutely awful commentary, to post on the day that the manufacturered brouhaha began. I was here, even while I wondered why a lot of the posts were still visible. I'm here now, facing inappropriate criticism as to the "fairness" of where I post.

That's why I PM'ed you whilst trying to clean up said mess. I was horrified and embarrassed by our members' behavior.

If we are fortunate and favored by the powers that be, Gaile and Anet devs visiting Guru will not write off our HA community. They'd certainly be justified after the most recent outbursts.

JR · Jan 06, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Someone's misreading and inclination to flare is laid at our feet for "ignoring the community?"

Would you disagree that the HA community has been largely neglected? The only significant change they have been awarded with since... the release of the game... is one that they didn't really want, and hasn't seemed to work out at all for them. Hell, even Random Arena has recieved more new content than HA.

I don't agree with the attitudes of the posters here a lot of the time, but I can at least understand their deep frustration at the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Someone turned my benign assurance -- "Don't worry, we won't change the numbers in HA and call it done" -- into the e-drama of the week. Others jumped on board. Even with many voices of reason saying, "Reading comprehension FTW, that is not what Gaile said" the pages grew, the flames increased, and the "Oh my God, they killed Kenny!" comments continued.

Yes on the surface it is a flame thread full of people who jumped the gun and got insulting. Really I think it is also quite a good demonstration of just how little faith the HA community has in Anet, and the passion with which they want 8v8 returned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

There are plenty of online forums with members of the real HA community. This is one, but there are many, and while I understand and appreciate personal bias and pride in what one calls "home" in a forum sense, criticizing placement of threads by the dev team is completely counterproductive and in this case inaccurate on two levels.

Please link me to a forum which has a more active base of long standing and respected HA players. That could be a fairly steep request, being that it requires you to actually have a clue about the PvP community. Throwing out accusations of bias to cover your own tail really isn't particularly professional.

The simple fact is that it has only been in the last two or three weeks that Anet has implied that they might care a little about the direction and improvement of HA. It has only been within the last two days that they have said they will actually do anything about it. Looking at the past track record of Heroes Ascent the fact that the community is so jaded and disillusioned really comes as no surprise to me. As such when dealing with this section of the community I would be tempted to show a little understanding and tolerance, instead of the slightly grating atttitude with which you normally post.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 06, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Those are utterly unacceptable comments, and they are provably untrue. Someone's misreading and inclination to flare is laid at our feet for "ignoring the community?" When we're here, every day? When feedback is read and relayed and discussed daily? I cannot simply let that sort of viewpoint go unchallenged, so do let me tell you a few facts: First, there is no "ignoring the voice of this community" going on, and our continued involvement here is proof of that. I was here, even amongst the absolutely awful commentary, to post on the day that the manufacturered brouhaha began. I was here, even while I wondered why a lot of the posts were still visible. I'm here now, facing inappropriate criticism as to the "fairness" of where I post.
.

First of all, I speak for myself and my guildies, not for the whole GURU HA section, and definitely not for the mods. Thats how we feel out there.

I know You are here every day, reading all the posts and we do really apprieciate that. But that being said I fail to see Anet involvement in developing Heroes Ascend. Other pvp modes got new maps every expansion, I wont even mention lots of time and work of talented developers who made 3 pve campaigns. Thats A LOT of content. But HA guilds and players got kick in the ass - the only change we got so far was the unwanted by majority of HA players famous 6v6. In case you havent noticed the number of players seriously went downhill as the result of that rash and unjustified change. Of course, Guild Wars is Your product and You can do with it as You please. But we, the players have the right to express our opinions and feelings, even if they contadict Your point of view.

Ill tell you whats going on from the perspective of HA player. All I see is that my former friendlist is now half-empty because lots of people quit the game and bough WOW. Lots of great Heroes Ascend guilds disbanded, or left the arena to gvg. All this because of the great "update" we got from you. I dont know how Your numbers looks like ( playercount-wise ), but I see decline and stagnation. You dealt the final blow to active community, by scrapping all we were playing for more than a year, without asking us about it. Of course, like I've written before, if Your product, and You can do withit as You please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Let's look at this comment: "It's not fair when Anet representatives post important info (elsewhere)." Stop and consider: We post a lot, across many forums both when we feel it is important and when it's not important at all, just to stay in touch. In the context of the thread that was turned into the week's major drama, the contention of "unfairness" and "important information" is entirely irrelevant, because the "information" I posted wasn't important! And in fact, what I said, the "information" I shared, wasn't really important at all; there was actually no information in my comment beyond the assurance that the designers know what they're doing, and that they won't make a quick-fix error such as the one that the forum poster was concerned about.
.

Because of the reasons I mentioned above, HA players are very impatient. Thats why they react in this harsh, and sometimes immature manner. But I still think that this raw passion is much better than disinterest of others. I know a lot of posters from other forum , I wont mention the name here, arent and never were HA players. So they all have their nice and theoretical ideas to implement and suggest, and they can present them well, in calm way. But in reality all I see in those posts is indifference, and often scorn towards Heroes Ascend community and players. "gvg is supreme" , "only noob fame farmers wants 8v8" - all those comments are there.

HA community is still alive and kicking. At least here, on this board. Sure, we might not be nice and tidy carebears, but this bunch of boys and girls CARE about the Heroes Ascend, as they spend MOST of their time ingame there. Not in pve, not in gvg, but HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

There are plenty of online forums with members of the real HA community. This is one, but there are many, and while I understand and appreciate personal bias and pride in what one calls "home" in a forum sense, criticizing placement of threads by the dev team is completely counterproductive and in this case inaccurate on two levels. .

Can You mention the name of just one forum who has more representative HA community than guru?. I dont know how much You know about HA scene, but we have them all. Balanced players from [sOap], [ PUFF ], [EaT] and [StP] tomention only few names, we got IWAY players from [MATH] and other guilds, we got spikers, we got everyone high ranked and in great numbers. Guru > all when it comes to Heroes Ascend players, this is where the real players hang imo. Thats why I registered on this forum, not TGH, or GWO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Lastly, when I have truly "important information" I do my best to get it to all communities in the very same timeframe. I think you can see that quite clearly in posting histories. If you have a question, at any time, Inde has my email contact information or you are welcome to PM me. But please do keep in mind that it is incumbant on the moderators and administrators to assure that there is an environment conducive to productive discussion in which I can post. .

We will do our best to keep this forum free of offtopic, profanities and direct flame towards guru posters and anet employees. I refuse to censor other opinons though, even if the dev team might not like them. People have the right to express themselves and their discontent. There will be no pre-emptive censorship or shutting-up fellow HA'ers.

I promise You Gaile, that we will not tolerate offensive behaviour. And as You have probably seen, every post You make here gets lots of productive replies, and is always met with interest. But please, dont expect everyone here to be happy, just becauase you gave another promise, that the things will get better. We had more than a year of history that Anet did NOTHING to HA community, except dealing the final (6v6) blow. Maybe its not pleasant, but thats how we feel.

Yes to open discussion, no to profanities and pointless flames, but also no to censorship to please the devs.

ToxicWasted · Jan 06, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Sorry Gaile, but I must agree with above posts. While even minor arenas (sorry for saying so, but you know it's the truth) such as RA and TA got updated regulary, Anet failed to give the Heroes' Ascent community just what it deserves. About every single Player vs Player arena got rewards such as new maps, changes to the system (Knights in GvG etc etc.) Heroes' Ascent seemed to be skipped in all this. The only notorious thing in my memory that has been changed to HA is the removal of two perfectly fine maps, knowing the Rifts and Burial Mounds.

Even though it's true that the Heroes' Ascent community doesn't really have an established base and a whole bunch of them doesn't even visit fansites at all, you must admit that it's certainly NOT Guild Hall. Guildwarsguru indeed seems to be skipped there. (While I must say it's getting much better and you're posting here regulary, two thumbs up for that!) By the way, I'm European and this is the only forum I visit regulary but I can't speak for other Europeans of course.

All the best,

Xelz

Gaile Gray · Jan 06, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

I think you are misunderstanding my intention. The post above is not about HA. It is about this forum and about our communication with one another. I am not in this thread to discuss the problems or potential changes to HA. I am in this thread to talk about the Heroes' Ascent Forum Section, as the title implies. I welcome your input on HA in other threads. Here, I am trying to improve communication.

Don't strawman this discussion, please. Don't make this personal, as if by demeaning me you're somehow a hero to a portion of our shared community, and a portion that I am doing my darnedest to serve, every single day.

HA needs to change. And in order for it to change in the best ways possible, everyone should focus on communicating better, more clearly, and as respectfully as possible. In the end, each of us wants the same thing: An improvement to a valuable element of Guild Wars. Let's work together to achieve that end.

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 07, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

I see gaile use the word 'significant' numerous time and i hope that the intended changes will be significant enough to help HA. Many are angry to very limited attempts in the past to improve HA. The sarcasm and spiteful nature of many of the posts are directed towards perceived half-hearted efforts to restimulate HA interest. Much of what was the intent of the post is good for the HA community but only time, trial and error will see if the developers truly 'know what they are doing'

Razz

phasola · Jan 07, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Gaile i'm pretty sure you didn't play (or play) HA and have no idea how it was then or it is now.
Basically my and a lot of other people's favourite area got screwed overnight.
We didn't get anything, only party size reduction (DESPERATE MOVE) and some "exciting" map changes. Don't you think it would have been better to make the changes to HA while it was 8v8 and not give it a crappy makeover.
Now all i can see is a desperate attempt to make people come back to HA. When the population more than halves in a couple of months don't you think there is a problem ?

ToxicWasted · Jan 07, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I think you are misunderstanding my intention. The post above is not about HA. It is about this forum and about our communication with one another. I am not in this thread to discuss the problems or potential changes to HA. I am in this thread to talk about the Heroes' Ascent Forum Section, as the title implies. I welcome your input on HA in other threads. Here, I am trying to improve communication.

Don't strawman this discussion, please. Don't make this personal, as if by demeaning me you're somehow a hero to a portion of our shared community, and a portion that I am doing my darnedest to serve, every single day.

HA needs to change. And in order for it to change in the best ways possible, everyone should focus on communicating better, more clearly, and as respectfully as possible. In the end, each of us wants the same thing: An improvement to a valuable element of Guild Wars. Let's work together to achieve that end.

That's totally true, even though I don't see who's demeaning to be a hero. It'll be hard to communicate better, since there are a LOT of harsh people on these forums (and to my sadness, mostly in Gladiator's Arena.). And even though our moderators are doing a marvelous job at deleting posts/locking threads, the only change that could help these forums is people getting less rude and trying to overthink their posts before they click the "Submit Reply" button.

Gaile Gray · Jan 07, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I'm really hoping that we can keep this as a "state of the forum" discussion, and converse on the "state of HA" elsewhere. I'm really focused on trying to improve communications, and although it's a difficult goal to achieve, please allow me to continue on that path in this thread.

I will be reading and relaying any new input or suggestions on the issue of HA itself in the many other threads on the subject.

Thanks.

Tiyuri · Jan 07, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Congratulations on just ignoring three dissatisfied customers. Excellent PR.

Gaile Gray · Jan 07, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Congratulations on just ignoring three dissatisfied customers. Excellent PR.

Asking that we keep this on topic is not ignoring customers. There's nothing wrong with focusing a thread to a particular topic, in this case, communication. There is something wrong with persistently flaming a forum member. Please stop it.

tomcruisejr · Jan 07, 2007, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Congratulations on just ignoring three dissatisfied customers. Excellent PR.

dude i think your posts are meant for this thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10094259

i encourage flaming (the act, in general) but flames placed in a wrong thread is noob.

Gaile Gray · Jan 07, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

dude i think your posts are meant for this thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10094259

i encourage flaming but flames placed in a wrong thread is noob.

Oh, tom, you disappoint me. I've noticed such valuable contributions, such witty repartee, such valuable contributions... and you're advocating flaming!?

Thank you, Nurse. I'm sure we can carry on without, well, carrying on.

tomcruisejr · Jan 07, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Oh, tom, you disappoint me. I've noticed such valuable contributions, such witty repartee, such valuable contributions... and you're advocating flaming!?

appropriate flaming though.

. we're just human beings.

emotions are hard to control sometimes.

Tiyuri · Jan 07, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Asking that we keep this on topic is not ignoring customers. There's nothing wrong with focusing a thread to a particularly topic. There is something wrong with persistently flaming a forum member. Stop it.

You think you're beyond criticism? Your JOB is PR, as the artists job is art, the programmers job is programming, and the game designers design the game. We can criticise all those people but not you?

Guess what, I'm your customer, I'm completely unsatisfied with you, and I'm saying so. Do you think you can hide forever behind the idea that if anyone says anything bad about the way you're conducting yourself, because you happen to use a forum as your medium of communication, they're flaming?

Lets be honest here shall we, the s*** you deal with is nothing compared to PR in a hotel, or in an airline. You'd have people shouting at you face to face all day long.

Gaile I am an ADULT, you seem to think your entire player base is a bunch of prepubescent children, I am not interested in hearing motherly bull about the way I conduct myself, that's none of your concern. I will not sit down and "hope things get better", I'm not going to be shrugged off by the PR rubbish you usually spout.

I'll say it again, I've lost all respect for you. I'm not flaming you, this is fact, you have a job to do and you've completely failed at doing it, yet you continue to come and post absolutely grating, frustrating, sometimes down right RUDE posts to the community you are supposed to be working with.

I constantly post in threads started by you, I sometimes mention you by name and have very simple, very polite questions. You ignore them. You constantly ignore anyone who doesn't sing Anets praises.

tomcruisejr · Jan 07, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

JR- said, "This morning I decided to have a quick browse of the Glads forums, checking them in my usual manner. I was slightly stunned to see that the vast majority of the front page of threads were locked. Some of these I know I had done myself, but the rest I checked out. I was disappointed to see that every one of these locks was justified, due to people filling threads with the same old garbage.

It has been made repeatedly clear that Anet developers read this forum. Here they seek insight, opinions, and see what issues are currently bothering the community. Or... they would do, if this forum was actually readable. How can you honestly expect to be taken seriously as a community with the kind of childishness that goes on?

It has gotten to the point where either things change, or I start requesting bans on trouble makers. Hell initially I wanted the whole HA forum locked and removed, but after reading some posters and talking to people via PM I realized that it does in fact have potential - and the HA community does deserve attention.

It dissapoints the most because of how much I am pushing for requested changes and improvements to HA, only to be undermined by the attitudes of a community I supposedly moderate. If you wish to have an effect and an influence on changes to HA, which is an ENTIRELY realistic desire, clean up the attitudes - seriously.

Regards,
Your friendly moderator.

(Leaving this open for any discussion, and because I am sick of seeing locked threads.)"

Guys, it's the first post of the thread. This thread is requesting for thread hijackers, firestarters, e-warfreaks, bored people who just want to stir up the forums to clean up the act because it's sending wrong message to A.Net or not getting the best out the polluted suggestion threads or maybe giving the impression that we're all whiny spoiled brats who just want anything asap. And you took Gaile's post here out of context.

Go post your off topic flames in Lyssa's Section.

Gaile Gray · Jan 07, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

I'm always up for providing incredible amusement.

But for clarification, and because this is on the topic of communication -- ArenaNet does not expect commentary on things about which players have insufficient information. If we say "Changes are coming" and if we do not provide details, we certainly don't look forward to "The sky is falling" responses.

We invite your feedback on the game as it stands, and we invite your input or suggestions on potential changes that you might like to see. We invite you to test, as you are invited to do during the weekend of the 19th. But certainly we do not expect comments or input on something that is still in development about which you know next to nothing. And please understand, it is not feasible or reasonable to post the entire development list of proposed changes and ask you to comment. Development by a committee of 1,000,000? That is the sure route to chaos! (Let's just pass on the "But if only ArenaNet would tell us everything they have in mind" comments, please. That is not a realistic request, even if it is common. ArenaNet is far more transparent and far more inclusive than any other company, but there is a limit to that, as there must be.)

The advance testing that we are doing is pretty unprecedented, and again is an example of the fact that when we specifically invite feedback it is not based on hypotheticals, but rather on what you've experienced. It's to that that you should look for an example of how and when we particularly seek player feedback.

FYI, my statement that we would not simply change the party size and call it done was not posted "with precise purpose to be ambiguous." It was posted with the assumption that readers would understand what I said, even if said briefly and tongue in cheek. It became clear that I as overly optimistic about that, and the manner in which I said those few words was not clear. For that I've begged a hundred apologies. But there was no planned ambiguity, and words like "intentionally deceitful" are inaccurate, divisive, and insulting. Comments like that do nothing to improve communication and, again, that is the goal of this thread.

mikeaza · Jan 07, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Im not gonna argue again and again with the same point than lots of people, I just want to show my support to tyiuri and JR- to their good reply in this threads, I wouldn't have said it better. Keep going guys, I count on you to finally re-enjoy playing in HA. And when I look at the results of this pool, I can't wait to be in the next (or first

) update to HA.

leguma · Jan 07, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If we say "Changes are coming" and if we do not provide details, we certainly don't look forward to "The sky is falling" responses.

It is quite unfortunate that this is the case. One would think that such responses which detail the fears of the players, and implicitly changes that they would not like to happen in the game, would help the delevopers identify possible issues and problems earlier down the road. I would have imagined that it would have been better to receive such comments in advance than have them pour in after all the work had been done and the change is already in place. If this is not the case, perhaps it might be best to let people know, as it might mean fewer posts for the moderators to edit/delete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

my statement that we would not simply change the party size and call it done was not posted "with precise purpose to be ambiguous." It was posted with the assumption that readers would understand what I said, even if said briefly and tongue in cheek.

Any and all posts made by you are perceived by the forum community at large as being the "word of A.net". As such, any information that comes from you holds an inalienable weight to it and will be taken in the manner that is most in tune with the reader's thoughs on the subject.
Any statement that is interpretable is not absolute.
Any statement that is not absolute is ambiguous.
Any statement that is interpretable is ambiguous.
I have read many public statements issued by companies, and while I understand that you are not a lawyer as such, and you would preffer not to speak "legaleese" such an aproach would help to avoid unnecesary grief.

At the end of the day, the state of the HA section is due to the fact that it is both a place where players share their oppinions on the subject and a place where the developers come for feedback. These two purposes have overlap but they also have inherent conflicts, conflicts that only grow deeper when the subjects being discussed are important to the posters. If the both of them cannot coexist then maybe it is time for only one of these purposes to be allowed to continue.

These are my oppinions on the subject, and I courtsy respectfully while delivering them. Also I would apreciate if someone PMed me some civilisation because it appears my arguements are lacking it.

BrotherKurupt · Jan 07, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Tiyuri was banned? Hmmm, I guess anyone who actually posts constructive material with proper attention to grammar and mechanics is now in danger of getting banned too...

While it is painful to read posts by Ms. Gaile which do a great job of filling the white box but convey next to nothing, I am fully aware of the requirements that the PR position must satisfy. What is unnecessary though are the smilies that she arrogantly peppers each reply with, as if the mood is just bells and sunshine. Gaile is very pro at what she does--she ignores critical posts and replies with smilies to any post that could be in her defense. This includes replying to posts that do nothing more but thank her for posting and thank her for continuing to grace the PR position line on the staff list.

I frankly don't care about the PvE aspect of the game (except cool looking armor) and thus I refrain from posting there. I DO care about the Heroes' Ascent area...which is why I find smilies ridiculous from PR. Akin to spitting on our faces.

"Oh, I know you guys are all down, but here, have a smiley because we're thinking about changes!

"

"Oh I'm so sorry to hear about these flamers, but I guess we have to do what we have to do!

"

"Yes, I have conveyed my thoughts to the development team, but we ended up going back to discussing the finer differences between silver and white dye!

"